SA212 For Sale in Melbourne

[synthi]

http://www.musicswopshop.com.au/SwoppyI ... att&sort=1

I don't know anything about this amp yet, but may go in and take a look tomorrow.
Is the price as out of control as I think (baring in mind hiwatts are fairly rare down here and definitely command a price premium over what they sell for in the UK or US)?

I'll try calling them soon and find out the serial #.

What's a typical sale price for a clean 212 these days?

Also, does anyone have any tips for things to check (besides the usual looking for mods, original transformers)? my only experience is with the heads.
How would I know that the speakers are original?

Cheers,
Matt

[synthi]

Called the shop... The guy didn't know too much but it's missing the serial # plate and is loaded with celestions
Also, apparently the seller has recently dropped the asking price from $4400

[OldSchoolDave]

Reverb and Tremelo make it pretty rare. Might be the only SA212R on your continent...

The cabinet has a few scrapes, but is in better condition than a lot of other combos I've seen. Still, that seems like a steep price in today's market.

The speakers should have wk/yr date codes stamped on their frames. I wouldn't be surprised if the speaker backs were scratched up. Happens a lot to combo speakers, when footswitches and power cords rattle around in transit. Bring a flashlight and inspect the cones for any tears. It'd be nearly impossible to spot cone codes without some disassembly. An articulating mirror might help.

If you have the serial number of the amp, you can find an approximate production date on mark's Hiwatt Registry: http://hiwatt.org/RegAmps02.php . I see two SA212R's in the 9700 S/N range, built approximately in August of 1976.

Inspecting the circuitry can be tricky, as the speakers were originally hardwired to the output transformer. They may not be amenable to you disconnecting the leads.

Very interesting - let us know what you find out.

Dave

EDIT: Oops - didn't see the remark about the missing Serial tag and Celestions . In that case, I would definitely press for a lower price. The chassis will probably have a "T/S" sticker with date and pot and cap codes can help identify its age. They'd have to allow you to pull it apart, though. On the bright side, no worries about disconnecting any original speaker leads .

[Dr.HI-TONE]

no serial tag and celestions
$1300-$1500 maximum

[synthi]

Thanks for the input guys.
I may not end up having time to make it in there today, but at the asking price, it'll probably sit there a while.
I'm still curious to have a closer look... never seen an SA212 in the flesh and let alone one with reverb and trem.
The guys at the shop are cool and will probably be happy to take it apart, so I may snap a few photos if I get the chance.

[OldSchoolDave]

The guys at the shop are cool and will probably be happy to take it apart, so I may snap a few photos if I get the chance.

Please do that, if you can.

Like I mentioned, the speaker leads may need to be desoldered in order to remove the chassis. Not Hiwatt's finest design moment .

Because my SA212 was not a museum piece in the first place, I wired a jack into an empty power tube hole in the chassis to faciliate dismantling:

SA212 Speaker Jack mod.jpg (160.94 KiB) Viewed 3101 times

Dave

[synthi]

Mr Snarfus and I did manage to pop in to the store yesterday but were not able to take the poor thing apart to get a closer look at the guts. It was late in the day and the store was quite busy.
In the flesh, it looks about the same as that photo, except there are a couple scrapes through the tolex to the cabinet (top right cabinet edge and one on the back).
It was definitely 100W, and had both partridges in it. Celestions were celestion-rola G12M (didn't go looking for date codes).

Output tubes were some tired sounding JJ EL34s. Reverb and trem were working, though the trem depth was less than one might expect with the intensity control maxed. It was a bit noisy, more hum and hiss (with no input) than I expect to hear from a Hiwatt in top form.

Looks like the serial plate had been popped off with a screwdriver or something, as the rivets were still there, with traces of the plate under the heads. The store guys have no concerns about the provenance of the amp (it currently belongs to some reasonably well known muso whose name escapes me again and I know they run a tight ship - that place is a bit of a melbourne institution for trading gear), but I still wonder if it has a bit of a 'history'. I can't imagine too many legitimate reasons for tearing off the serial # plate. I guess it's possible it got torn off by the amp rubbing against something else in a van or car though.

Basically it was a little tired and sad looking/sounding, but probably still a good candidate for being brought back to top form.
I wanted to take pity on it and give it a good home, but there's way too much wrong with it to even consider it at that price.

According to the guys in the store, it's been sitting there a few months already, so I will keep an eye on it. If it's still there in a few months more, I will make a rude offer, but I don't like my odds given the original starting price of $4400(!) (in case it's not already clear, the amp is on consignment, not priced by the store)

Also, should it have had a reverb/trem footswitch with it? I couldn't see one but didn't ask either.

p.s. Sorry about the lack of photos...conditions in the back of the shop were no good for the iPhone camera.


p.p.s nice work on the output jack. I don't think there's anything wrong with improvements to an old amp so long as you're not cutting it, I would likely do the same thing.

[mhuss]

Sounds like mine, SA212R 100 watts. Mine still has the original Fanes in it though. It is a little noisier than normal DR103, but there is a pile of extra circuitry to do the vibrato and reverb between the master volume and PI.

--mark

[synthi]

So... this amp is still sitting in the store on consignment and it turns out that it's been there since April '11(!). Last week I made an offer of $2000AUD on it, which is taking the upper end of Dr. Hiwatt's suggested price in the US and adding what I call the "island" factor. Everything remotely rare and heavy costs quite a lot more down here (and not even rare stuff...you should see the crappy silverface fenders with asking prices of $1500+ that people actually buy!). Typical asking price for a beat-up DR103 is in the $3000 range down here, though I have no idea if they actually sell for that.

The owner has come down to $2500, but I feel this is still too much and am holding out. Have not heard back since then but will check in again in a few more weeks.

The amp does seem down on power, even with new output tubes (JJ 6CA7s fitted by the store), so I'm a little concerned about the condition and most definitely will be checking for mods and also the condition of the output transformer in case there's a partial short in there. Am I right in assuming that the combos use the same output transformer as the heads?

Is there anything else to look out for besides obvious mods and replaced bits?

Also wondering about the possibility that the celestions might be factory fitted (assuming the date-codes even match those of the amp)... would they possibly have done that either as a one-off or on request? Obviously the more likely scenario is that the speakers were blown early on in the amps life and got replaced with celestions of the period as they would have been a lot more common down here.

p.s. I just remembered I'm many months overdue in posting pictures of the DR405 restoration. Will try and get around to it soon.

[OldSchoolDave]

Am I right in assuming that the combos use the same output transformer as the heads?

Yes. Virtually the same amps, just with upside down control panels. The SA212's had wider chassis than the corresponding heads.

Also wondering about the possibility that the celestions might be factory fitted (assuming the date-codes even match those of the amp)... would they possibly have done that either as a one-off or on request?

It's possible, but I tend to doubt it. Custom fitted speakers were available, but Goodmans and ATC were more popular choices than Celestion. I suppose it's also possible the amp was shipped to Australia sans-speakers, to save on weight? Some original Orange cabs were shipped to the U.S. empty, and loaded with domestic speakers. Just a thought.

Dave

[synthi]

Also wondering about the possibility that the celestions might be factory fitted (assuming the date-codes even match those of the amp)... would they possibly have done that either as a one-off or on request?

It's possible, but I tend to doubt it. Custom fitted speakers were available, but Goodmans and ATC were more popular choices than Celestion. I suppose it's also possible the amp was shipped to Australia sans-speakers, to save on weight? Some original Orange cabs were shipped to the U.S. empty, and loaded with domestic speakers. Just a thought.

Dave

Yeah I figured as much... just a bit of wishful thinking on my part. I think I'm trying to convince myself that the asking price isn't that outrageous...

[synthi]

I received an email today informing me that the owner reluctantly accepted my offer if I was still interested in the amp.
Popped down after work, opened it up and had a quick look, checked the output transformer and decided to take it.
Another listen told me it was still sounding worse for wear, but given that the basics were in order and the mod list was short, I wasn't too worried.

A few things have been done besides the speakers - one pot, a few resistors, one output tube socket and snubber have been diodes fitted.
All in all not too bad and commensurate with the physical condition of the amp. (It's not bad, but certainly not pristine)
Checked the supposedly new JJ KT77s in another amp and they seemed fine, so replaced all the pre-amp tubes with new tungsol 12ax7 (was full of a mix of tired looking chinese and russian 12ax7s) and that sprung it back into life.
Output was still low, but that is due to the 2.2k 5W screen grid resistors(!). Interestingly, the guys at the shop told me they put the KT77s in there as it came in with "the wrong output tubes" in it.

Bias resistor has been changed already for a more 'suitable' value and it's reading 42mA @ 470V. Since the resistor has already been changed, I see no reason to mess with it further. Might stick a pot in there for a little more control. Will probably replace the bias cap for safety (still the original phillips, though someone's lifted one end to check it before).

Anyways, more details and better photos to come after I get a chance to poke around in there a little more. The plan is to fix up the screen grids and do the minimum to get it back in good working order. Filter caps seem fine - after replacing the preamp tubes, it's relatively quiet and none of them are bulging significantly; certainly no ooze.

Super happy at this point.

p.s. If anyone's got suggestions on replacement speakers (a pair of 25W G12M certainly won't cut it once it's working well again), then I'm all ears.

427652_394678057215874_100000210483946_1670443_516989870_n.jpg (156.39 KiB) Viewed 2675 times

[synthi]

p.p.s. no serial # on the chassis either, but pots and caps date to around mid 1976, so probably a similar age to my other amp.

[OldSchoolDave]

Super happy at this point.

p.s. If anyone's got suggestions on replacement speakers (a pair of 25W G12M certainly won't cut it once it's working well again), then I'm all ears.

Great news - congrats!

See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1512 for a discussion about alternative speakers. Are Eminence produccts available in Australia? If not, whose are?

Dave

[Dr.HI-TONE]

It looks nice in the picture.
can you post internal pics of the "guts" ?
I have a 1977 SA212 with salt and pepper grille cloth. FWIW....